Never mind Black Caviar - how about Frankel V Camelot?

[Posts: 2032Joined: 06 Jun 2011, 14:34Location: Bury St Edmunds]

Joni the Prix du Prince d'Orange is a group 3 race and, as far as I know, has always been. You keep referring to it as a group 2 for some reason.

[Posts: 6513Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 00:37]

Game Set and Match Joni? You are certainly a walking talking 'Frankel' stein who can support your Hero through a fantastic knowledge of the horse but are you really looking forward to the Queen Anne?? Predictable is a word that the Carp Fishermen use when landing the same fish time and again,I want to see King Henry cast his rod into Deeper waters something where there's at least a Fish that will put up a fight!

[Posts: 1607Joined: 11 May 2010, 14:41]

Joni the Prix du Prince d'Orange is a group 3 race and, as far as I know, has always been. You keep referring to it as a group 2 for some reason.

You are right EF - will amend!

[Posts: 1607Joined: 11 May 2010, 14:41]

Game Set and Match Joni? You are certainly a walking talking 'Frankel' stein who can support your Hero through a fantastic knowledge of the horse but are you really looking forward to the Queen Anne?? Predictable is a word that the Carp Fishermen use when landing the same fish time and again,I want to see King Henry cast his rod into Deeper waters something where there's at least a Fish that will put up a fight!

I do too Gord. I do too. But of course I am looking forward to going. You don't see horses like this every day. For me watching this horse is an event.

BTW your analogies get better and better - you should look to get published!!!

[Posts: 3957Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 11:39Location: Sacramento,CA.]

Just like my feelings about Zenyatta.An event, A thrill of a lifetime,a mood elevator.A feeling of being in the presence of something wonderful.Puts Frankel in the bottom box.

[Posts: 1861Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 05:04]

No bigger fan of Zenyatta than myself and yes she was exciting to watch. Not just because she was a brilliant filly but because there was always that little bit of doubt if one day she might not get there...sadly the day came.

Frankel at a mile is untouchable as he showed when making Canford Cliffs look ordinary and he certainly wasn't.

No one can possibly get excited about Frankel kicking Excelobration's backside again but most of Zenyatta's races were also foregone conclusions.

The real excitement came when she ran in the Breeders against the unknown.

You haven't given Frankel that chance.

Sir Henry has already mapped out the Juddmonte over 10f for Frankel. The very race that the great Brigadier Gerard was beaten in.

I would imagine if he wins well he will then go for the Champion Stakes so there are 2 opportunities for others to make their moves.

There are plenty Group winners out there who can challenge him like Carlton House, Camelot, Bonfire. So You Think, Cirrus des Aigles, Nathaniel and nothing stopping them turning up in either race.

But you know what? He could take them all on and beat them pointless and you'd say but he's never run over 12 furlongs.

The biggest joke is people trying to compare Camelot to Frankel who must be at least a stone plus weight for age inferior to the champ a horse AOB clearly has no intentions of taking within a mile for Frankel. The guineas was crap and the Derby wasn't much better although Camelot was he is still not in the same league.

This of course is all reflected in the betting for the Champion Stakes. You won't see many Guineas and Derby winners available at 6/1 if they were an intended runner.....clearly AOB has no intentions of running him or the bookies agree Camelot simply is out of his league.

[Posts: 1607Joined: 11 May 2010, 14:41]

Just like my feelings about Zenyatta.An event, A thrill of a lifetime,a mood elevator.A feeling of being in the presence of something wonderful.Puts Frankel in the bottom box.

A lovely little post completely spoilt by your needless final sentence. I think we get it now - you don't like Cecil and you don't rate Frankel.

[Posts: 1368Joined: 06 Jul 2007, 11:28]

Pleasure:
.................
Total
Group 3 – 20
Group 2 – 24
Group 1 – 29
Total Group wins - 73

..it wasn't you I was asking, but I'm pleased you quoted all that as it should be clear to most people that it's high on quantity but not on quality, and everyone knows that despite all those names, Excelebration is the only horse beaten into 2nd so far that is of any standing, who showed his true merit in defeat.
...which answered my question....
Plenty of excuses for Canford Cliffs and Immortal Verse.

[Posts: 1607Joined: 11 May 2010, 14:41]

Pleasure:
.................
Total
Group 3 – 20
Group 2 – 24
Group 1 – 29
Total Group wins - 73

..it wasn't you I was asking, (this is an open forum no?!) but I'm pleased you quoted all that as it should be clear to most people that it's high on quantity but not on quality, (errr not to me it isnt!)and everyone knows that despite all those names, Excelebration is the only horse beaten into 2nd so far that is of any standing, who showed his true merit in defeat.
...which answered my question....
Plenty of excuses for Canford Cliffs and Immortal Verse.

I was waiting for this UM as I know you don't rate Frankel Did you actually read my list? Nathaniel not a good horse? Why did they have to finish second anyway? What were the excuses for Immortal Verse? I didnt hear any! The CC excuse came over a week after the race (stud values anyone?!!)Don't you think it is funny that all these horses were reportedly in great shape before they met him but had excuses after? If you havent worked it out yet let me help you.

Frankel destroys horses.

Jim Mcgrath said it after the Guineas and we have seen it countless times since. He makes horses look bad. He takes them completely out of their comfort zone.

That is why you get a Guineas field beaten like they are in a 4 mile slog at Hexham. That is why an Irish Derby winner gets beaten 11 lengths. Three five time Group 1 winners thrashed.

Do you really honestly believe that they all just had a bad day at the office? That would make Frankel the luckiest horse alive. What are the odds on ALL those horses running below their best?

The racing world has been duped. Frankel is useless. He has no worthwhile form. The world IS flat. Cheryl Cole CAN sing. England WILL win the Euro's.

Nothing I say will convince you I know but even so Christ on a bike..........!!!!!

[Posts: 3957Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 11:39Location: Sacramento,CA.]

Dear Jonibake et al.Without my contrary review of Frankel this site woud be boring.As I said someplace else without the valleys there are no mountains.For many years I faughr in Sir Henry's corner claiming that he had a bug in his yard which affected his horses; I never thought that he was in decline as a trainer.Being Irish I am traditionally "against the government".What is the point of bragging if there is no one to brag against? Since I cannot deny that Frankel is wonderful I am constrained to finding a weakness and that is "Beyond a mile" he may not be.I will maintain that position until he proves that he can carry his brilliance over a distance of ground.However as a Californian i believe Frankel should be allowed to run over a mile on the grass in the BC at SA and claim his world wide crown.Incidentally Red Rum was the best horse in the world when he raced.But even his accolades carried a caveat.

[Posts: 1607Joined: 11 May 2010, 14:41]

Dear Jonibake et al.Without my contrary review of Frankel this site woud be boring.As I said someplace else without the valleys there are no mountains.For many years I faughr in Sir Henry's corner claiming that he had a bug in his yard which affected his horses; I never thought that he was in decline as a trainer.Being Irish I am traditionally "against the government".What is the point of bragging if there is no one to brag against? Since I cannot deny that Frankel is wonderful I am constrained to finding a weakness and that is "Beyond a mile" he may not be.I will maintain that position until he proves that he can carry his brilliance over a distance of ground.However as a Californian i believe Frankel should be allowed to run over a mile on the grass in the BC at SA and claim his world wide crown.Incidentally Red Rum was the best horse in the world when he raced.But even his accolades carried a caveat.

See that's a perfectly reasonable post!! Best to catch you early in the morning hey?!

I have to accept that not everyone shares my adulation of the horse - but I REALLY struggle to do so!!!

[Posts: 12269Joined: 22 Dec 2007, 19:24]

Incidentally Red Rum was the best horse in the world when he raced.

Really?

[Posts: 12269Joined: 22 Dec 2007, 19:24]

Just like my feelings about Zenyatta.An event, A thrill of a lifetime,a mood elevator.A feeling of being in the presence of something wonderful.Puts Frankel in the bottom box.

What a hypocrite Andyod. You criticise Sir Henry for not upping Frankel in trip / taking on the top middle distance horses. Yet Zenyatta ran in so many races against vastly inferior opposition. Only taking on the best twice... Beat Gio Ponti a length and Twice Over beaten 2 1/4 lengths. For sure they were "Group/Grade 1 animals", but they were not real top top class. Both Twice Over and Gio Ponti had to give the female 3 lbs and aren't as good as Excelebration.
Zenyatta also got beaten the other time she took on Grade 1 males.
Zenyatta wasn't even rated the best of her sex one year, with Rachel Alexandra taking top honours.

Zenyatta was a top class mare. But her ability (how good she actually was) exaggerated by some people. Unbeaten run only possible because she took on inferior opposition. Frankel has taken on all-comers at a mile.

Unlike Zenyatta who was kept to her own sex for most of her career... ANY top class horse can take on Frankel in in ANY race he runs in.

For sure it would be nice to see Frankel run at 10 furlongs, but Frankel has already proved just how good he is.