Interesting times

[Posts: 4753Joined: 07 Oct 2002, 11:50Location: Scotland]

The liberals stood at the last election saying that they would support and in/out referendum on Europe. The Tories look like they might rebel and we are finally going to get a say;

Cleggers said in 2008 - “Nobody in this country under the age of 51 has ever been asked that simple question. That includes half of all MPs. We’ve been signed up to Europe by default: two generations who have never had their say.”

And the Liberal on line petion for a referendum is still open here ..

http://ourcampaign.org.uk/europe

Vote .. let's support the Liberals and have a say at last.

[Posts: 1825Joined: 03 Jan 2004, 19:43Location: north west]

A fascinating event coming up and one which, with any luck, will once again demonstrate to the electorate that our main parties are led by self-serving thickoes.
I'm no politician and claim no great intellectual insight, but, what could be a win-win for all 3 main party leaders will, through their stupidity, end up as a lose-lose for them and, worst of all, for democracy in the UK.

DAVID CAMERON. Wants the motion defeated and is said to be considering a 3 line-whip to "force" Tories to vote against it.
Even though voting on this issue does not mean the government must act on it (they can legally totally ignore it). By having it 3-line whipped he:-
a) Alienates even further a large rump of his party, many of whom will never trust him again (that's if they still do now). LOSE
b) Demonstrates clearly to the electorate that he does not consider their opinions worthy of consideration. LOSE
c) Achieves both the above even though, as is being touted, the Labour and LIB-DEMS would vote down the motion meaning that there was no point in him doing a) and b) in the first place. What a wally. He'd have got his party (and perhaps a cynical electorate) on his side by letting them have a free vote, confident that the motion would be defeated. He'd have got his way and gained credence. WIN / WIN

NICK CLEGG. Wants the motion defeated. AS mentioned in DaveJay's initial post, spoke for the people having a say BEFORE the last election. But now in government, shows his true coulours. The Lib/Dems are neither Liberal or Democratic. LOSE/LOSE
He, if he had any moral backbone, should be urging his party to SUPPORT the motion. With Cameron's whipping a no vote and Labour unlikely to support it, he could have said that he at least kept to his manifesto promise (on this at least) and yet still have got the NO vote his EUSSR-loving party really want. WIN/WIN

ED MILLIBAND Wants the motion defeated. He has potentially the best position but rather appears like a rabbit caught in the head-lights of the pro uber-politcial world of Westminster and Brussels. He's a pro EU man at heart (as much as Clegg), but by telling his party to stand up for democracy and letting the people have their say, could have cast himself as braver, more honest and more of a champion of democracy than Cameron. A WIN/WIN surely. Especially as, if Cameron has a 3 line whip and the EU-Pension-receiving Clegg Undemocrats don't support the motion the it'll fail which is what MILLIBAND also wants too. Another win. But, will he get his Labour MPs to support the motion?By all accounts no. So, he too will show himself up as a politician who's sh!t-scared of letting the voters have their say. A political pygmy just like Cameron and Clegg. LOSE/LOSE

I wrote to my MP (a Conservative) some months back asking him would he support such a motion if it ever came before the house. He wrote back promptly. A nice letter saying how he believed the EU was good for Britain and the UK needed to be at the heart of it influencing things rather than outside unable to influence things; so no, he wouldn't support such a motion.
Fair enough one might say, that's his opinion (ie exactly the Cameroon line). But if he thinks this is sucjh a convincing argument for staying in the EU, why is he afraid to make those points in a referendum? Is it because he knows it's cobblers?
Furthermore he never once mentioned the right of the people to have a say over their democracy/sovereignty. He never answered my question as to whether it was right that non-one under 54 had ever had a vote on our Common Market - sorry, EU membership. So I rather think he's another ar'e-licking MP who wants to brown-nose his party leader in order to get some rewrads further on in his career; to hell with democracy.

[Posts: 4753Joined: 07 Oct 2002, 11:50Location: Scotland]

I tend to agree with everything you have said there insomniac, the Liberals are proving to be the worst political party to ever be in government in this country, even worse than the Tories. They have renaged on every election promise that they made and they are rabid EU nazis.

There is no legitimate mandate for the EU and as Billy hague said 'the Euro is a burning building with no exits'.

The Greeks have declared war on their own people to buy time but for what? They will default eventually, how are they going to pay back the 370Bn they owe, if they cant finance the interest payments next week. Like Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy they need to raise interest rates but because they are lumbered with the Euro they can't, so they are forced down the austerity route.

Anyway, is anyone running a book to see if Cleggers is going to be an EU Commissioner come the next general election because he won't be an MP.

[Posts: 4753Joined: 07 Oct 2002, 11:50Location: Scotland]

Only one Liberal rebelled and stood by his parties election promise for a vote on EU membership last night, 31% of the Tories rebelled also .. nice to see politicians putting their constituents and not their own self interests first for a change.