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Geldings in the Epsom Derby

General discussion about Uk, Irish and International horse racing
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shabby

Postby shabby on 28 Feb 2011, 13:28

Marginal Value wrote:
Pinza wrote:Because The Derby has always been viewed as the supreme test for three year olds with a view to establishing their credentials for stallion careers.

The British Pattern is based around the good of the Breed, which is why geldings are not allowed in any of the Classics.


It has never seemed logical to bar geldings from big races.

How does having geldings in the race stop it being the supreme test of stallion prospects? It can hardly be a supreme test if certain horses are not allowed to run. A gelding might finish eighth, fifth, third or even first, but the “best” stallion prospect will beat all the other stallion prospects. Is it just because the geldings do not have to carry a couple of small extra weights? Why is it not “good for the breed” for stallion prospect to be tested against geldings as well as entire horses?

.


Because geldings would enjoy a possible adavantage in the Derby. The Epsom classic looks to test speed, stamina and temperament.
The natural state for a 3yo colt is to be interested in fillies and mares and must overcome these and other distractions to win the race.
Gelding a horse is often done to pacify and control temperament therefore a gelded 3yo in the Derby has less to overcome...therefore there may be a potential advantage.
sequere pecuniam

tw: @notooshabby

 

Anonymous

Postby Anonymous on 28 Feb 2011, 14:16

Marginal Value wrote:In the times when colts were rushed off to stud at the end of their three year old careers, it would have been helpful in the test of future stallions to have geldings running in all the big races because they tend to stay in training for many years and create reliable links between generations.


Shabby addresses your other points very well, MV.

As to this one, most of the horses who run in the Derby will end up as geldings in the short to medium term anyway, so we are going to get those reliable links in the fullness of time.

And as geldings can run in the major all-aged races, even as 3yo's, from late June (the Eclipse) onwards, if any of them were that good that early on they can be measured against the Derby winner before the end of the 3yo season.

Meanwhile, the Derby and other Classics are placed in a special bracket, for the good of the breed.

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andyod

Postby andyod on 28 Feb 2011, 14:21

Surely you mean for the good of the owners?

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davidjohnson

Postby davidjohnson on 28 Feb 2011, 15:39

I think the Arc is still open to only colts/horses and fillies mares.

The Abbaye is the last major Group 1 I can recall that was opened up to gelding in 2001 in which it drew a record-sized field.

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andyod

Postby andyod on 28 Feb 2011, 16:17

I believe that good animals would be kept in training longer if more group races were open to geldings.A good gelding would make more in a year than a good horse at stud.Notice I said "a good horse" not a "very good one".

 

Anonymous

Postby Anonymous on 28 Feb 2011, 18:04

andyod wrote:I believe that good animals would be kept in training longer if more group races were open to geldings.

Your wish is already granted. Apart from the three c&f autumn 2yo Group 1's and the 3 c&f Classics at 3yo, how many British races (excepting of course those for fillies and mares only) are not open to geldings? I think the Answer=zero.

That would make a grand total of six races geldings are not allowed into, so if I'm correct I am not sure what your contention is?

They are allowed in the Dante (3yo) and other classic trials, the Mill Reef (2yo) and other sub-Gp 1 races, the Lockinge and all 4yo and up Gp 1's -- and even (at two years and up) the Nunthorpe.

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jose1993

Postby jose1993 on 28 Feb 2011, 19:21

I don’t see what the sport of Horse Racing gains through preventing geldings running in the major Group 1 races at 2 and 3. Are big breeding operations really going to change their objectives if geldings were allowed in the races they‘re not currently?

As for the good of the breed, is that a philosophy that still applies when the Derby winners who are stallions are shuttling to the Southern Hemisphere?

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thedogbilly

Postby thedogbilly on 28 Feb 2011, 20:57

As far as I am aware geldings were permitted to run in the Derby up until 1906

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andyod

Postby andyod on 28 Feb 2011, 21:01

I really didn't have a contention. I suppose only gelding owners who also own the sire or dam would be interested in keeping geldings racing on the flat.To prove the value of the sire or the dam.With the opportunities in Europe for a nh career the issue is not a major one.

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Adrian

Postby Adrian on 28 Feb 2011, 23:34

Pinza wrote:
andyod wrote:I believe that good animals would be kept in training longer if more group races were open to geldings.

Your wish is already granted. Apart from the three c&f autumn 2yo Group 1's and the 3 c&f Classics at 3yo, how many British races (excepting of course those for fillies and mares only) are not open to geldings? I think the Answer=zero.

That would make a grand total of six races geldings are not allowed into, so if I'm correct I am not sure what your contention is?

They are allowed in the Dante (3yo) and other classic trials, the Mill Reef (2yo) and other sub-Gp 1 races, the Lockinge and all 4yo and up Gp 1's -- and even (at two years and up) the Nunthorpe.


One other race is restricted to colts - the St James's Palace (Gr.1) at Royal Ascot is for 3yo colts only.

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Miss Woodford

Postby Miss Woodford on 28 Feb 2011, 23:41

shabby wrote:
Marginal Value wrote:
Pinza wrote:Because The Derby has always been viewed as the supreme test for three year olds with a view to establishing their credentials for stallion careers.

The British Pattern is based around the good of the Breed, which is why geldings are not allowed in any of the Classics.


It has never seemed logical to bar geldings from big races.

How does having geldings in the race stop it being the supreme test of stallion prospects? It can hardly be a supreme test if certain horses are not allowed to run. A gelding might finish eighth, fifth, third or even first, but the “best” stallion prospect will beat all the other stallion prospects. Is it just because the geldings do not have to carry a couple of small extra weights? Why is it not “good for the breed” for stallion prospect to be tested against geldings as well as entire horses?

.


Because geldings would enjoy a possible adavantage in the Derby. The Epsom classic looks to test speed, stamina and temperament.
The natural state for a 3yo colt is to be interested in fillies and mares and must overcome these and other distractions to win the race.
Gelding a horse is often done to pacify and control temperament therefore a gelded 3yo in the Derby has less to overcome...therefore there may be a potential advantage.

People often bet against geldings in the Kentucky Derby because in the 136 runnings only 9 geldings have won out of over a hundred that have tried.
Vagrant (1876)
Apollo (1882)
Macbeth II (1888)
Old Rosebud (1914)
Exterminator (1918)
Paul Jones (1920)
Clyde Van Dusen (1929)
Funny Cide (2003)
Mine That Bird (2009)

7 geldings have won the Preakness, and just one (Creme Fraiche in 1985) has won the Belmont.

Funny Cide made me a racing fan. A Derby winner that kept racing (and winning!) at 4, 5, 6, and 7 did so much for the sport.

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andyod

Postby andyod on 01 Mar 2011, 08:16

Q. What do you get if you geld a slow colt?
A. A slow gelding.

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Marginal Value

Postby Marginal Value on 01 Mar 2011, 10:25

shabby wrote:
Marginal Value wrote:
Pinza wrote:Because The Derby has always been viewed as the supreme test for three year olds with a view to establishing their credentials for stallion careers.

The British Pattern is based around the good of the Breed, which is why geldings are not allowed in any of the Classics.


It has never seemed logical to bar geldings from big races.

How does having geldings in the race stop it being the supreme test of stallion prospects? It can hardly be a supreme test if certain horses are not allowed to run. A gelding might finish eighth, fifth, third or even first, but the “best” stallion prospect will beat all the other stallion prospects. Is it just because the geldings do not have to carry a couple of small extra weights? Why is it not “good for the breed” for stallion prospect to be tested against geldings as well as entire horses?
.


Because geldings would enjoy a possible adavantage in the Derby. The Epsom classic looks to test speed, stamina and temperament.
The natural state for a 3yo colt is to be interested in fillies and mares and must overcome these and other distractions to win the race.
Gelding a horse is often done to pacify and control temperament therefore a gelded 3yo in the Derby has less to overcome...therefore there may be a potential advantage.


Thank you for your reply.

If geldings may have an advantage in the classic races and a few other 2yo and 3yo events, may they also not enjoy that advantage in all the other Group 1 races already open to them? Surely the King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes, the Eclipse, the International Stakes, etc. are also tests relevant to stallion prospects, and are statisically more likely to have distracting fillies and mares in the field than are the colts classics. There still seems to be a logical inconsistency. In recent history, when geldings were once again allowed into some Group 1 races but not others, was any explanation given about the divide?

If the BHA thinks that the 2000 Guineas, Derby and St Leger colts might be distracted by fillies but geldings will not, maybe they ought to ban the fillies. Fillies hardly ever run in the first two colts classics anyway, and if the Park Hill Stakes was returned to its past status they would have no need to run in the St Leger either. Or perhaps we should find out if there truly is an advantage to geldings in such races. Geldings may indeed have less competetive spirit, motivation or determination because they have lower levels of male hormones.

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