Frankel Vs Caviar - Can we NOT hear about this ALL year?

[Posts: 199Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 12:03]

Sea BirdII, your answer is simplistic in many ways. Luca Cumani trained Manighar as a 15 furlong plus horse. Black Caviar's trainer Peter Moody took the horse over in November last year and has injected speed into horse. He was a 2YO winner for the Aga Khan and Alain de Royer Dupre. Moody's training feat has been nothing less short of amazing. Peter Moody has been champion trainer in Victoria for a number of years, a premiership winning trainer. He is not riding on the coat tails of Black Caviar as Sir Henry Cecil is not riding on the coat tails of Frankel. Both champion trainers in their own right but one horse they will be remembered forever.

[Posts: 526Joined: 22 Sep 2011, 10:40]

Beating who? Shoot Out by 3/4 lengths, who was just as easily despatched by Manighar. The same Manighar who could not win a race in Europe since 2009 and now has three historic Group 1s down under. Yep, I'm sure Frankel must be shivering at the prospect of meeting her. She would not get anywhere near Excelebration, nevermind Frankel.

No! it shows up the real class of a trainer! Moody is a class trainer,he did what Cumani didnt,he found the horses right distance and put speed into him.Better trainers,more versatile,simple as that!

[Posts: 554Joined: 01 Oct 2011, 18:53]

Would that be the same classy Moody who got found guilty of doping a horse ?..the Ozzys let horse dopers off the hook if the trainer offers the lamest of excuses such as 'the horse found it on the streets'.

[Posts: 2267Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 16:22]

Would that be the same classy Moody who got found guilty of doping a horse ?..the Ozzys let horse dopers off the hook if the trainer offers the lamest of excuses such as 'the horse found it on the streets'.

Singling one race horse trainer out is like pointing at one prisoner in Belmarsh and calling him a crook - they're all at it to some extent, whether it's doping, not running horses to their merit, maybe to fit up a handicap mark or a gamble, the standard punter today can only ever be guessing as to if a horse or jockey might be trying.

Great thread though, much better than banging on about races being too dangerous, glad we've forgot about that (don't mention the marathon).

[Posts: 554Joined: 01 Oct 2011, 18:53]

I singled him out because he trains Black Caviar of all horses. I think it's worth pointing out as it seems the Australian horse authoritys don't clamp down on this sort of thing. I wouldn't be suprised of Black caviar was on something, accidentally of course.


One of Gai Waterhouses horses was on Cocaine($15,000 fine), and another positive for anabolic steroids($10,000 fine). She pretty much got s slap on the wrist for both.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-31/story-3/3800872

[Posts: 2267Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 16:22]

Whereas over here, we turn a blind eye to most of the indiscretions going on daily and treat the rest with paltry penalties...

[Posts: 554Joined: 01 Oct 2011, 18:53]

That's right, he got a ban aswell as a £40,000 fine. Moody got no ban and a much lesser fine. I would also like to think if any trainer over here had a horse on Cocaine or steroids, they would get a ban from the game. My point is this, a fine is no deterrent in Australian racing as the gains far outstrip the potential loses. Given the lack of authorative discipline in Australian racing, it's hard to believe that cheating isn't more widespread. There's also equine welfare issues at stake as well. To appeal against a horse being on Cocaine on the basis that cocain is widely available on the streets is damning on Australian racing as a whole. Given the commercial impact on racing, i actually wonder whether they would want to publicise any story if Black caviar was actually on a banned substance of any form. The discipline process is amateurish. It might also explain why some group horses run twice in the space of a few days, or why some sprinters have run at much longer distances.

[Posts: 88Joined: 02 Jul 2011, 16:17]

Beating who? Shoot Out by 3/4 lengths, who was just as easily despatched by Manighar. The same Manighar who could not win a race in Europe since 2009 and now has three historic Group 1s down under. Yep, I'm sure Frankel must be shivering at the prospect of meeting her. She would not get anywhere near Excelebration, nevermind Frankel.

No! it shows up the real class of a trainer! Moody is a class trainer,he did what Cumani didnt,he found the horses right distance and put speed into him.Better trainers,more versatile,simple as that!

...or maybe, an even more common-sensical reason is Manighar is just having to face weaker opponents down-under, as evidence by the fact another european horse, Americain, has been trailing in second and third behind him. Or is that also due to David Hayes being a genius trainer as well? Oh wait, he was still trained by Alain de Royer-Dupre when he won the Melbourne Cup, so it can't be the trainer then, must be that the horse is just finding life easier over there...

Just a simple question for you! Could you please explain to me why out of the hundreds or whatever australian-bred horses Moody must have under his care and the thousands he must have trained in the past, it is a European horse which goes to become the first ever to claim these three consecutive Group 1s. Does he gives preferential treatment to Manighar, haha? Or is that horse who couldn't win a race since 2009 in Europe just purely superior to the Aussie milers and 10 furlongs horses he faced...

And, how come the first seven horses, seven, in your most famous and richest race are all European-bred, none of which ever won a Group 1, and guess what six out of them were European trained as well. If these were not European-trained, Jollyp would have been telling us that these were transformed by the apparently superior Aussie trainers, haha...

[Posts: 199Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 12:03]

Sea Bird, before you start accusing all Australian trainers of being crooked I suggest you look at the honour roll of the Melbourne Cup that 5 European trained horses have won _ Ireland (2), France (2), Japan (1) and wait for it ............. Britain (0). Some of our greatest horses from the past did things that trainers from your part of the world wouldn't dream of doing. A lot of your races are contrived for the simple reason of pacemakers involved. Pacemakers are a thing from a bygone era which does nothing for racing and cheapens the sport. We don't allow pacemakers in Australia. If it wasn't for pacemakers So You Think would have another 2 group 1 wins to his name. That's right in a 10f race have a pacemaker go 4 furlongs then leave him to do the donkey work in the lead 5 from home and let him be a sitting duck for a back marker. Look what happened to Frankel in the St James' Palace Stakes. The pacemaker did absolutely nothing for him and nearly got him beat. If that's your idea of great racing I'll take Australia anytime.

[Posts: 88Joined: 02 Jul 2011, 16:17]

Sea Bird, before you start accusing all Australian trainers of being crooked I suggest you look at the honour roll of the Melbourne Cup that 5 European trained horses have won _ Ireland (2), France (2), Japan (1) and wait for it ............. Britain (0).

Go and tell me where I accused Australian trainers of being crooked, or are you just seeing things you wanna see. I suggest you read the post again. And, when did I say I was British? As much as I know, the horses I've mentioned above Manighar and Dunaden are french, and Americain was French-trained. If you had known your stuff more, you'll find that even my username, Sea Bird is a French horse. So, I'm hardly talking from a British perspective am I? But, even then it's not as if seven non-French bred or non-English bred horses are going to take the first seven places in the Arc or Epsom Derby, is it?

Anyway, I've asked a genuine question which I haven't got any answer to yet. As I said, I think you should probably reread the post without actually jumping to conclusions. As for your pacemaker comment, So You Think ain't Sea The Stars you know!

[Posts: 363Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 10:37]

Manighar's runs since moving to Moody are better than his Aussie runs for Cumani, and he's going better now than he has with Cumani for some time. Moody has made him a stronger horse with a sharper sprint, which makes all the difference in the stop-start races of Australia. But in Cumani's defense he's probably run at this level in Europe in the past (cutting Americain to a neck in 2010 in France when that one was flying).

Sea Bird, only the most close-minded people will argue with the fact that European distance racing is stronger and has more depth than Australian, in terms of both bloodstock and racing (although racing is closer with the defection of Americain/Manighar). I don't think Jollyp is one of those. But I question his claim that Australia has better trainers on the basis of one shaky data point of evidence.

[Posts: 133Joined: 17 Jun 2011, 03:21]

Aussie racing is no more rife with illegal substances than European racing is. If you want to talk about our harness industry different story, but they're trying very hard to clean that up at the moment. I'd have thought drug positives show they are getting caught? I don't know a lot about drug testing in UK racing so can't comment....except to say if one of you pommy eggheads gets on here and says it doesn't exist there then I'd say, quite respectfully, that you are naive and have le head in le grass. (maybe remove the grrrrr? Ha ha)

There are champion trainers in both countries, and aiden obrien isn't one of them.

It thought we'd already established that the depth of distance horses is better in uk and depth of sprinters is better here? Please excuse if im off track as I didn't read all of page 3 but is anyone arguing that? If so then.......immediate UPPERCUT!!

[Posts: 526Joined: 22 Sep 2011, 10:40]

I singled him out because he trains Black Caviar of all horses. I think it's worth pointing out as it seems the Australian horse authoritys don't clamp down on this sort of thing. I wouldn't be suprised of Black caviar was on something, accidentally of course.


One of Gai Waterhouses horses was on Cocaine($15,000 fine), and another positive for anabolic steroids($10,000 fine). She pretty much got s slap on the wrist for both.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-31/story-3/3800872

You better watch yourself idiot libel laws stretch all over the world you twit,how the administrators let this comment go unchallenged says something bias!